Curse

Lorekeeper · Jul 31, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Its been over a month since the last skill balance, apparently they are being timed to occur after every monthly AT.

Keeping in line with the tradition. What would YOU like to see changed?

my wishlist

*HA/GvG Hero allocation - Teams are allowed to bring a maximum of 2 Heroes and 2 henchman into GvG and HA.*

Ritualists

Channeling

Ancestors Rage - increased recharge to 12-15 seconds.

Spirit Burn - increased recharge to 12 seconds decreased damage to max 110

Wielders Strike - increased recharge to 15 seconds decreased damage to max 100

Communing

Vital Weapon - decreased max duration to 20 seconds, increased recharge to 5 seconds (something like that)

Restoration

Wielders Boon - increased casting time to 3/4 or 1 second. Reduced healing to max 110-120 health.

gotta get back to my thesis ill add more on my next study break.

Lorekeeper

Div · Jul 31, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Hopefully Anet will do at least a decent skill balance after that double weekend and tourney.

HA/GvG: no heroes, but up to 4 henchmen.
PvE: can use up to 7 heroes.

**Note: all attributes will use a 0...12 standard**

Assassin:

Black lotus strike: 10...23 damage. 4...16 energy.
Blades of steel: 4...12 damage, 14 damage at 14-15 dagger
Horns of the ox: 13...25 damage.
Augury of death: 7...19 duration. 15 recharge.
Shadow prison: 3...8 duration.
Siphon speed: 3...15 duration.

Reasoning: Lowering the damage output slightly on the gimmick build should help for Hero Battles. Reduced snaring capability in places like HA will help too.

Dervish:

Avatar of melandru: 10...55 duration. +75 health
Pious renewal: 1 second cast. 12 recharge.
Wearying strike: 1...20 damage. 8 recharge.

Reasoning: Melandru = God mode. Seems like the problem with pious renewal is the infinite energy, so recharge should be longer than duration+20% enchant (so > 10 seconds). Don't see initial energy cost of it as a big problem compared to recharge, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Elementalist:

Blurred vision: 1 second cast. 6...16 duration. 25 recharge.
Frozen burst: 10 recharge.

Reasoning: Blurred vision is crap at 2 seconds. Frozen burst is too strong for endless fast recharge snares+damage.

Mesmer:

Panic: 8...20 duration. 10...58 damage.
Power return: 11...3 energy. reduces recharge by 20%.
Conjure nightmare: 7 recharge.
Conjure phantasm: 7 recharge.
Energy drain: 2...7 energy. 20 recharge.
Signet of humility: 25 recharge.

Reasoning: Should help with making hex pressure builds a little less powerful. Power return was too good on a paragon, so more energy return at 0 fast casting, and allows for their quicker recasting with more returned energy if not a mesmer primary.

Monk:

Aegis: 20...44% block.

Reasoning: Slight change to aegis to make it less great on midliners or healing monks.

Necromancer:

Soul reaping: no energy gain on other minions
Barbs: 5...17 duration. 12 recharge.
Corrupt enchantment: 1 second cast.
Faintheartedness: 33% slower. 6-18 duration. 10 recharge.
Mark of pain: 10...22 duration. 2 second cast.
Reckless haste: 3...12 duration. 20 recharge.
Shadow of fear: 18...30 duration. 15 energy. 12 recharge.
Reapers mark: 10...22 duration. 1...5 degen. 10 energy.

Reasoning: Changing of very common necro hexes will hopefully greatly weaken heroway builds in HA/GvG as well as hex builds in GvG.

Paragon:

Go for the eyes: 5 adren.
Stand your ground: 3...15 duration.
Aggressive refrain: -15...10 armor.
Spear of lightning: 8 recharge.

Reasoning: Paragons are still too tough with their armor and insane ranged DPS and a lowering is needed to keep balance.

Ranger:

Archer's signet: move to marksmanship.
Glass arrows: 14...26 duration. 3...15 damage.
Broad head arrow: 3...15 duration.
Keen arrow: 3...27 additional damage.

Reasoning: Ranger spike, and for archer's signet to be even remotely useful.

Ritualist:

Ancestors rage: 30...102 damage. 10 recharge.
Offering of spirit: spirit must be "in the area".
Spirit burn: 12...48 damage. 12...36 additional damage. 12 recharge.
Spirit rift: 25...109 damage. 2 second cast. 8 recharge.
Splinter weapon: 3...39 damage. 12 recharge.
Wielders strike: 10...46 damage. 10...46 additional damage.
Vital weapon: 5...29 duration. 20...128 health. 4 recharge.
Flesh of my flesh: 6 recharge.
Reclaim essence: 3/4 second cast.
Sight beyond sight: 3/4 second cast.

Reasoning: Anyone who played or watched HA or GvG in the past year should know this is a major problem. Ritspike, with their spirits and healing ability, are already much better than their bspike brothers at keeping themselves alive. Along with 1 second cast spikes at greater damage output, they are just way too powerful. Less talented guilds are able to rise up the ladder in GvG, and horrible players are able to beat good teams in HA. A significant lowering in the damage output and healing capabilities is really needed. I hope Anet will finally listen.

Warrior:

Protectors strike: 3/4 second activation.
Tigers stance: 4...10 duration. 25% IAS.
Fear me: 6 adren.
Watch yourself: 5...17 armor. 5 adren.
Desperation/drunken blow: 6...30 damage. 12 recharge.
Steady stance: 6 duration. 1...5 energy. 10 recharge.
Skull crack: 7 adren.

Reasoning: Made tigers stance better for warriors, and slightly worse for sins. Fear me and watch yourself are already good skills even on a sin, but way overpowered on a steady stance warrior, regardless of if it's an axe or scythe. Being able to hit for 120 damage every other attack while providing teamwide armor buffs and edenial is too broken. Oh, and zaishen needs to weed out more teams, so skull crack has to be buffed

lacasner · Jul 31, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Nerf SoR..and pretty much any other skills which promote passive and tankage junk. Oh yea, obliterate rits kthnx

Oh yea, make horns of the ox 15 energy or something, that will seal the deal.

moko · Jul 31, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

(shadow prison duration, deaths charge recharge, black lotus recharge, black spider energy) -- if these are true plans that Izzy has in mind i'll be thankful also.

what else i REALLY want changed:

all of the ideas Lorekeeper suggested; also Spirit Rift, make it so it kills a spirit for each rift, or so there needs to be a delay on the map so only one can be activated before the next comes or something.

for Assa;

Expose Defenses - longer recharge, less duration
Impale - 3/4-1 cast
Blades of Steel - slight damage nerf
Augury - 20 recharge NERF IT DAMNIT or
Deadly Paradox - remove the 50% recharge part, SERIOUSLY WTF?

Warrior:

Fear Me! - more adrenaline
Steady Stance - 10 e higher recharge
Drunken/Desperating - fix it so it would only KD if you actually hit so hexes and blind wouldn't kd you if you miss therefore steady won't trigger

Nec:

either nerf Barbs or kill heroes from actual PvP kthx.
all the other hexes to which i honestly don't know a solution but hexstacking, i'm sure others will comment on it again.

Derv:

Ava of Melandru - 1 condition removed on skill usage. please just freaking fix this broken skill already!
Wearying - 8 recharge
Pious Renewal (lol yes i know but please think off TA also) - 10e, 1cast, 10 recharge

Monk:

Sor - lulz, simply dumb skill. make it like SoD, just worse, a lot!

make the wind line useful; interesting post about it here.

fix RA so people stop QQing.

and, for the last, fix HvH bugs, let's start and fix every part of "PvP".

lacasner · Jul 31, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

(shadow prison duration, deaths charge recharge, black lotus recharge, black spider energy) -- if these are true plans that Izzy has in mind i'll be thankful also.

Mokone, by destroying ox, the SP sin combo is perfectly counterable. But by being on ur ass, you can't do anything, and thats what makes the build overpowered.

moko · Jul 31, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Mokone, by destroying ox, the SP sin combo is perfectly counterable. But by being on ur ass, you can't do anything, and thats what makes the build overpowered.

ox has always been so conditional anyways, i don't even consider it a problem; i actually go that far and say it's a fix for HvH only because there's SO MUCH BETTER builds for assassins to use than SP.

but these nerfs that Izzy has suggested will absolutely destroy the bar more than an ox nerf would ever do.

ox should remain a powerful tool in various assassin builds that require somewhat more skill to use than SP IMO, so please don't touch it.

however, i just saw there's a dark prison buff planned also (very dumb move; non elite sp for the same cost with 10 more recharge?), so if that would be buffed ox COULD possibly use an energy nerf also.

Skye Marin · Jul 31, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Baby steps guys.

-There's no reason why Rit Spike can't be nerfed while maintaining the same amount of DPS for PvE.
-Izzy has already said he likes where Steady Stance is right now after it's recent nerfs. It's an interesting alternative to what Warriors can currently do, and has some good trade-offs between adding more pressure and less spike.
-For Heroway, the problem isn't the hexes or skills they use. It's the energy they get back from Signet of Lost Souls and Bone Minions when something dies.

The objective of the skill balance is to maximize the number of viable and skill-based builds. Nuking a build into oblivion doesn't solve the problem correctly, and more than a number of suggestions on this page are attacking the wrong skills or mechanics.

moko · Jul 31, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

-Izzy has already said he likes where Steady Stance is right now after it's recent nerfs. It's an interesting alternative to what Warriors can currently do, and has some good trade-offs between adding more pressure and less spike.

i'm not thinking about GvG only here; i'm thinking off TA also. spikes are RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO useless in TA either way, and the HUGE amount of pressure steady can supply (either in a full steady build or as simple melee in a hexway and whatnot) is WAAAAAAAAAAY too big for TA.

if anything, i would at least like the fear me or drunken/desperating blow fix so they are in the end still weak to blind and hexes, because right now they arent and just energy burn you out until there's no more energy for hexes nor blind and roll over you~~

and yes the energy abuse matters also, but how would heroway ever pass 1vs1 when they don't have a good hex pressure?

neoflame · Jul 31, 2007, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Destroy Parasitic Bond.

Div · Jul 31, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

-There's no reason why Rit Spike can't be nerfed while maintaining the same amount of DPS for PvE.

I don't see why it should have the same high DPS compared to other utility characters. If anything, buff the smiting line first before trying to give ritualists insane damage.

Quote:

-Izzy has already said he likes where Steady Stance is right now after it's recent nerfs. It's an interesting alternative to what Warriors can currently do, and has some good trade-offs between adding more pressure and less spike.

I don't see izzy's logic here. Steady stance scythe warriors are able to provide insane AoE pressure as well as spiking capabilities. Yeah, I got hit for 100-150 damage last night in GvG from these guys as a dervish. Imagine how painful it is on a monk...

Quote:

-For Heroway, the problem isn't the hexes or skills they use. It's the energy they get back from Signet of Lost Souls and Bone Minions when something dies.

Agreed with the energy issue, but hexes are also a problem. Just look at hex builds in GvG.

Quote:

The objective of the skill balance is to maximize the number of viable and skill-based builds. Nuking a build into oblivion doesn't solve the problem correctly, and more than a number of suggestions on this page are attacking the wrong skills or mechanics.

Agreed. But at the very least we will have a more changing meta after getting rid of the overpowered builds to see if more people are willing to create more unique balanced builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

Pious Renewal (lol yes i know but please think off TA also) - 10e, 1cast, 10 recharge

I only GvG with some HA, HB, and RA, so can you explain the reasoning behind warranting such a strong nerf in energy, casting, and recharge?

Trying to get a very comprehensive list in my first post, so I'd like to see why people want certain changes so I can add to it.

lacasner · Jul 31, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

ox has always been so conditional anyways, i don't even consider it a problem; i actually go that far and say it's a fix for HvH only because there's SO MUCH BETTER builds for assassins to use than SP.

If this is true people would be using them, and other than ox-mobieus lock SP is still best atm. Hey, wait...i just mentioned ox again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mokone

but these nerfs that Izzy has suggested will absolutely destroy the bar more than an ox nerf would ever do.

True, but izzy should strive to provide equal alternatives, without destroying the sin bar completely. With twisting fangs the build isnt really imba at all.

shoogi · Jul 31, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

- Remove heroes and henchmen from PvP COMPLETELY.

- Reduce Paragon AL to 70+X against physical.

- Decrease damage of Ritualist's Channeling Magic.

- Steady Stance: Increase recharge.

- "I Will Avenge You": Make it not affected by dead Allies (=pets), only Party Members.

- Rampage As One: Nerf it somehow.

moko · Jul 31, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I only GvG with some HA, HB, and RA, so can you explain the reasoning behind warranting such a strong nerf in energy, casting, and recharge?

it's used in TA-IWAY builds (steady), it's a derv tank that can heal and keep everyone pretty clear, so without mass enchant removal or shutdown (while those teams usually run rangers also the shutdown part dies completely) your melee are forced to hit on the derv with infinite energy, mirage cloak spam (block) or train steady stance with huge armor buffs, healsig and the derv healing them without any problems.

basically..it's the ultimate buildwars. -_- kind of like frenzied defense monks with endless frenzied without drawback, resto heals and yeah..pwn.

Quote:

If this is true people would be using them, and other than ox-mobieus lock SP is still best atm. Hey, wait...i just mentioned ox again.

i won't have a problem with moebius ox at all to say the truth. :P black line has served it's purpose of abuse now so i really don't care how hard they would get nerfed. =P

Turbobusa · Jul 31, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Melandru - Yes to condition removal ON SKILL USAGE like (nearly) other avatars.
as for reckless haste, i don't think it should be nerfed. it cost a lot, as a 2sec cast time and don't last less than it's recharge.

remove heroes from pvp. it was hard to find a group before, but people dealt with it.

Div · Jul 31, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

as for reckless haste, i don't think it should be nerfed. it cost a lot, as a 2sec cast time and don't last less than it's recharge.

remove heroes from pvp. it was hard to find a group before, but people dealt with it.

The power in reckless haste is in the fact that it synergizes so well with price/spirit of failure to do extra damage or gain energy...and the fact that it's AoE so as you see two warriors converge on a spike target, you cast it and both get shut down.

Now that I thought about it, I think we should remove heroes as a whole from HA/GvG, but keep the henchmen.

Despozblehero · Jul 31, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Just My 2 cents from my perspective. Theres some very good ideas here.

Keep Hero's in HvH and PvE, remove them completely from all other PvP, even if you allow 1 its 2 too many. Theres Ziashen/henchies for PvP "filler" spots, you should never base a build around them, ever imho.

Nerf Rit spike... if you can win with team based button mashing its a bad idea... Its got too much damage and healing with easily met conditions. Nerf the healing potential the damage potential or the conditions to achieve that much.

Steady stance, Fear Me!, and Desperation/Drunken Blow is a problem imho too... just more button mashing... Maybe nerf Fear Me change it to remove adrenaline or something lol

Paragons shouldnt be such "hard" targets imho... Im not against reducing their overall armor, they effectively use a shield in their primary class anyways.

Mesmers I'd like to see them have a way to deal with weapon spells, either to remove them or discourage the use of them like damage of e-denial for them, just to reduce the "spamming" of some. Probably more of a personal want than anything, and just an idea.

African War Lord · Jul 31, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

I'd like to see something overpowered in wind prayers.

attacker's insight - your next 2 attack skills cost 5...10 less energy
mystic twister- recharge 6 seconds
onslaught - changed to 33% faster and 33% less energy
test of faith- 10 second recharge
whirling charge- attack and move 33% faster, suffer - 10...5 health degeneration

Robster Lobster · Jul 31, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Mostly nerfs so far?

Here's a few buff suggestions:

Melandru's Arrows: 18 duration>24 duration, damage bonus buffed from 8..24 to 14...30

small buff to a currently uncommon Ranger elite, gives it the same duration as Apply resulting in slightly higher energy for the Ranger, and a buff to damage to make it more powerful at flagstand, to compensate for it being less useful on a split compared to a BA bar.

Protective Spirit: 5...19 duration buffed to 10...30 duration

Whilst it's always been an amazing and staple skill, the duration increase should help deal with Melandru Dervishes a lot better, and allowing certain targets to stay safe for a longer period of time.

Watchful Healing: Change to a maintained enchantment, without -1 energy regen penalty (i.e. you can end it prematurely yourself). Ends after 10 seconds. May need a nerf to the heal, but I don't think so.

Remove Hex: 1 second cast time

Shatterstorm: Move into Domination line, deals 5...15 damage for each enchantment removed in this way. For each enchantment removed after the first, you lose 10...3 energy. Reduce energy cost to 5 from 10.

Makes it slightly harder to use on Paragons, and turns it into a viable elite for Dom mesmers.

Power Spike: Damage increase from 30...120 to 30...150.

Windborne Speed: Decrease cast time from 1s to 3/4s, reduce recharge from 5s to 4s.

Makes it a bit faster for flag running if people decide to run an air flagger, and turns it into a more powerful skill at flagstand.

Icy Prism: Reduce cast time from 1s to 1/4s, Increase recharge to 5s from 2s. Change it to interrupt all non-spell skills, keep signet disabling function. Increase energy cost from 10 to 15. Reduce damage from 10...54 to 8...28.

Makes it a possibility on a hydromancer split character, or even a flagger in the right build, it becomes useful for interrupting self heals, or attacks.

twicky_kid · Jul 31, 2007, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

i'm not thinking about GvG only here; i'm thinking off TA also.

No skill balance has EVER taken TA or RA into consideration. HA and GvG are what drive skill balances.

When we start having some TA competitions then Anet might start taking it into consideration.

Steady stance is fine. Only works with 2 other skills.

Fear Me is fine. Energy management is the problem there. They nerfed the entire inspiration line and never nerfed any edenial. What the hell did you think was going to happen? Besides if you raise the adrenaline cost we'll just add dark fury to the build and still run you over.

SoR is just plain stupid. No reason it should be that strong. Reduce to +20 armor.

Hit the delete button on Mel's dervish. It needs to nerfed so hard that no one wants to touch it. The meta needs to move away from Mels as fast as possible.

Buff inspiration line. There is so much more stronger enchant removal that drain enchant should not keep its current recharge.

Nerf the crap out of aegis. I'm so sick of this skill. It provides too much party def with mobility. At least wards you have some limits and team skill to use properly. Only draw back to aegis is it can be removed. Instead of nerfing the damn thing you added mirror of disenchant to the game. That is really dumb imo. If a skill needs to be nerfed you nerf it not add a skill specifically to counter that one skill.

jamal · Jul 31, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Just a simple nerf for me.
Change Vamp Bite and Touch from skills to spells.
This will rid the world of AB, RA, and to a small extent, TA of the plauge known and hated by most as touchers. Nothing is more fustranting to me than having a 9 game streak and losing it as by bad chance my team has nothing to counter touchers w/ and we get hit by 1 or 2. It is also equaly fustrating to be in AB and be faced with multiple teams made soly of touchers.
Changing this skills to spells will destroy touchers as Expertise won't apply and they won't have the energy to spam, and other classes that are for some reason using it won't be affected.